The Debate Continues

Socialists :

"aka, the government controlling the means of production... when you have a group of people deciding things for everyone, that's the government..."
Not really, as the government is controled by an Elite where as in the Socialist ideal it is not, although in much of actual 20th century 'Communism' this has not been true, as they are done by small self-interested groups which form Vanguard Parties and are out only to replace the current elite rather than create a Classless society.

"Translation, for people who don't speak commie : socailists want to take your stuff and give it to other people. They say this is the poor, but it always ends up being their powerful friends."
Nope, the Socialist wants to give equal to all not take anything at all. Besides, your held up on the idea of Private Property verus my held ideal of Personal Property, which though simmilar are different in that a thing or object stops being yours once you have finished using it indefinately and is thus returned to the Community so that others may use it freely with no restriction.

"In short, the government owns everything, and controls who gets what. There's no competition, so everything sucks and fails, and the wealthy in capitalism (that is, the people who actually work and make wealth for everyone) are replaced by the powerful state authorities."

Again, in Socialism there is no state at all, it has withered and colasped in terms of it's use and existance replaced by a mass communal existance.
Also again within my own views there is no government as it would be in the Capitalist sense, nor in the Indirect sense as formed by some Socialists. Rather worker's councils control production of their own indivual cooperative and extert influence only over it, releasing what they produce to society as a whole in a communal manner.




Anarcho-Capitalists

"where as in the Socialist ideal it is not, "

oh ok, the socialists claim this is true, so I guess I should just ignore everything I know about people and society, and assume in your magic world the government will be a bunch of happy wonderful people out to save everyone. Get real.

"Nope, the Socialist wants to give equal to all not take anything at all."

??? If everyone is equal, you have to TAKE from the people that have and give to the people who don't have... ergo, you want to take my stuff. Get your own stuff.

"Again, in Socialism there is no state at all, it has withered and colasped in terms of it's use and existance replaced by a mass communal existance.
Also again within my own views there is no government as it would be in the Capitalist sense, nor in the Indirect sense as formed by some Socialists. Rather worker's councils control production of their own indivual cooperative and extert influence only over it, releasing what they produce to society as a whole in a communal manner."

PIPE

+

DREAM

=

Hundreds of millions of die under authoritarian government + the rest live crappy lives.

Thanks but no thanks.